Wikipedia talk:Deletion guidelines for administrators

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[edit] re fluff

I restored "fluff", because I think it's fair to give attribution to the document we're quoting, and I think the aside, while non-essential, is a helpful one. I care modeately more about the former, though I don't have a terribly strong opinion on either.

[edit] Voting and consensus

It's still not clear, so I deleted the intro sentence to the "Rough consensus" section:

An aspect of Wikipedia that confounds many people is the fact that there is essentially no formal voting, and informal votes or straw polls are rare.

The section from which the above sentence was deleted seems to both confirm and deny that voting is an essential part of the Wikipedia:article deletion process. Which is it? That we vote? Or that we do not vote?

Seems to me it's that we do vote but that we do not want to say that votes determine the result. If that's it, let's say it - plainly. Uncle Ed 14:22, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Protecting deleted pages' needs an update

The section on Protecting deleted pages tells you to go see either Wikipedia:Protected deleted pages or Wikipedia:Protected titles, both of which have big red Xs on them. This suggests that a new page of explanation *without* a big red X ought to be created. My surmise is that the new MediaWiki feature is now the preferred method. I assume, never having done this, that an admin should go through the dialog to create a new page, and then before creating it, hit the 'Protect' tab. Presumably this causes the result to show up in Special:Protectedtitles. Is it correct that this replaces the cascading protection method of doing protected titles? I won't try to revise this section due to my obvious lack of knowledge. EdJohnston (talk) 05:17, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:non-negotiable does not exist

Wikipedia policy, which requires that articles and information be verifiable, avoid being original research, not violate copyright, and be written from a neutral point of view is not negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. A closing admin must determine whether any article violates policy, and where it is very unlikely that an article on the topic can exist without breaching policy, it must be respected above individual opinions.

Wikipedia:non-negotiable does not exist. Wikipedia:Consensus is policy. So this paragraph has been taken out and shot. (yes, I know that this also means that I might actually get into trouble in certain MFD situations later... I'll just have to live with that.)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 11:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Non of the linked policies now claim to be non-negotiable. The only exception was NPOV, which I corrected back in line with m:Foundation Issues. --Kim Bruning (talk) 11:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

However, there actually is a difference between guidelines and policies, and the core content policies are non-negotiable. WP:CONSENSUS does not trump any of them. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:Policies is fairly clear that consensus does trump policy; "Both need to be approached with common sense: adhere to the spirit rather than the letter of the rules, and be prepared to ignore the rules on the rare occasions when they conflict with the goal of improving the encyclopedia". Taemyr (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless anyone objects I will remove the offending statement. Taemyr (talk) 03:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed this had happened. I object and have replaced it. Without it we are more or less reduced to a head count, which is a bad idea. dougweller (talk) 11:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The removed text talks about policy vs. consensus. We are still not reduced to a headcount, because deciding on consensus is separate from counting heads. WP:Policy is fairly clear that consensus can override policy. Taemyr (talk) 00:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Consensus says, "Consensus" among a small number of editors can never override the community consensus that is presented in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines; instead, consensus is the main tool for enforcing these standards." Rather than removing or restoring the paragraph, perhaps it should be clarified in intent? It isn't consensus that's being trashed, but the scale of involvement in forming consensus. 10 editors at an AfD can't decide that BLPs are okay after all; the community consensus is that they aren't. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the current wording on WP:Consensus, it is a recent change and does not appear to have been discussed. When you say "10 editors at an AfD can't decide that BLPs are okay after all; the community consensus is that they aren't." You are trashing consensus, you have to consider consensus amongs those that participate in the discussion. Silence implies consent. However BLP is a bad example, consensus can not override foundation decrees. So amongst other things we have to stay within the laws. If the paragraph is reworded I would want a wording along the line of "The policies and guidelines of wikipedia have broad consensus and must be seen as weighty arguments that can not lightly be set aside." Taemyr (talk) 18:15, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely, and our guidance needs to make that clear, as you say. I'm happy to have the statement clarified so long as have have it clear that consensus at an AfD can't over-ride policy. dougweller (talk) 17:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Then we are certainly not in agreement. I am of the opinion that consensus can and do override policy. Policy springs from consensus, it's not the other way around. More importantly, policy is broad in scope and there might be specific reasons to set it aside. Also, consensus can change and policy change is expected to lag behind. So my stance is that consensus can override policy, it can't ignore policy. Taemyr (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay. Let's look at older versions: "When consensus is referred to in Wikipedia discussion, it always means 'within the framework of established policy and practice'. Even a majority of a limited group of editors will almost never outweigh community consensus on a wider scale, as documented within policies."March 2008; "It is assumed that editors working toward consensus are pursuing a consensus that is consistent with Wikipedia's basic policies and principles - especially the neutral point of view (NPOV). At times, a group of editors may be able to, through persistence, numbers, and organization, overwhelm well-meaning editors and generate what appears to be support for a version of the article that is actually inaccurate, libelous, or not neutral, e.g. giving undue weight to a specific point of view. This is not a consensus."January 2007; "Consensus should not trump NPOV (or any other official policy). A group of editors advocating a viewpoint do not, in theory, overcome the policy expressed in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not concerning advocacy and propaganda. However, a group of editors may be able to shut out certain facts and points of view through persistence, numbers, and organization. This group of editors should not agree to an article version that violates NPOV, but on occasion will do so anyway. This is generally agreed to be a bad thing."January 2006; "Consensus should not trump NPOV. A group of editors advocating a viewpoint do not, in theory, overcome the policy expressed in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not concerning advocacy and propaganda."March 2005 (before it was policy). WP:CONSENSUS has always been clear that consensus does not trump established policies. That said, I think the wording you propose is probably well within the spirit of it. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The march 2008 version also includes; "Consensus is not immutable. It is reasonable, and sometimes necessary, for the community to change its mind. A small group making a decision does so on behalf of the community as a whole, at a point in time. If the community disagrees, the decision was badly founded, or views change, then the updated consensus replaces the old one." The paragraph you point to have since been sharpened down to noting that when a local consensus sets policy aside this singular event is not in itself a proof that the policy should be changed. The January 2007 version notes that a group of editors is able to give a false impression of consensus. This is irrelevant, since we are talking about what to do when a consensus exist. It goes on to note that the way to handle this problem is to insure wider community input, it does not in any way indicate that the policy overrules consensus.

A concurrent look at WP:Policy indicates that through all this time it's been established as a fact that practices change before policies do; March 2008, January 2007 and January 2006. All of which indicates that not only can consensus override policy, but consensus overriding policy is the preferred way to change policies.

I hardly need to point out that WP:IAR have been policy throughout all this. (Well, in 2006 it was just recognized as "very important")Taemyr (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:IAR is unrelated to consensus, though. It's a separate consideration; we can WP:IAR when it comes to judging consensus just as we can WP:IAR when it comes to applying policy. Consensus overriding policy is the preferred way to change policies: on wide scale. Hence why I say it's not consensus that's being trashed, but the scale of involvement in forming consensus. This is why I'm comfortable with your wording that "The policies and guidelines of wikipedia have broad consensus and must be seen as weighty arguments that can not lightly be set aside." I believe this is within both the spirit of Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Policy. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 02:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I see WP:IAR as the cleanest application of consensus wikipedia has. The best WP:IAR applications are those that pass at a nod, everyone that sees it agrees with the decision taken, hence consensus. If WP:IAR decisions is challenged it immidiately becomes a consensus concern. This is starting to veer of from the topic at hand though. Taemyr (talk) 06:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

It is information, not articles, that must be verifiable and must not be original research. Unsatisfactory material may be removed. As for copyright material, it must be removed. Articles, not individual information, must provide a neutral point of view (and lack of neutrality could almost invariably be remedied). It seems to me the paragraph in question is rather mixed up about all this and article deletion is unlikely to be an appropriate remedy for any of thsese ills. However, if such issues have been noted in discussion, and if, after time has elapsed, no one is willing or able to provide remedies, and if removing the unacceptable material leaves an unsatisfactory article, then it may well be appropriate to seek to have the article deleted. I am very concerned that a such stern "non-negotiable" stance should be advocated in circumstances where it is merely a closing admin's opinion that it is "very unlikely" that a satisfactory article could exist. I think this unfortunate paragraph should be very substantially reworded or, preferably, removed. Thincat (talk) 18:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Fairly clear that conensus can override policy? Are you saying that an article can be copyvio if there is a consensus on the talk page? Maybe the paragraph needs revision, but it needs to be clear that policy should be taken into account. Otherwise canvassing, SPAs, etc can defeat any policy related arguments and it does turn into a headcount. dougweller (talk) 05:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, if an entire article was a copyright violation then, lacking alternative material, the article should indeed be deleted. If Egregious civil rights violations by Xxxxians had been created I find it hard to think of any argument, by any number of people, that would persuade me that it should be kept. However, this is not what the paragraph says, nor comes close to saying. I actually think we may be agreeing with each other! Thincat (talk) 11:15, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I said to myself "Self, I am just going to look around and not do anything right now" Yeah, like that was going to happen. First I am glad to see this has been discussed more. It was only few days ago I realized this paragraph had been removed and I am glad it is back in and being discussed. Several month sago I questioned what I saw as a slight trend to count "voted" is deletion discussions rather than look at the underlying policy and/or guideline. I was told that this was the guidelines that was followed and that some mistakes happen. Fair enough. But recently it seems to have come to a head overall, and it is not just AFD - it is MFD as well. In reading through the discussion so far I agree with the fact that a deletion discussion is not for setting a new policy or guideline and as such arguments that are not based on them or or clear misreading of them should be "counted". There was, for example, an article for an unreleased, at that time, album. It was first a PROD and, when that was removed, sent to AFD where the "rough consensus" was a "keep" but whose arguments avoided the nom for not meeting the WP:NALBUMS criteria. Matter of fact the entire discussion was mainly about WP:CRYSTAL which, under the same WP:NALBUMS criteria, specifically says "should be discussed only in the artist's article." The closing admin seemingly just "counting votes" (all 3 of them) aside, if the idea here is that an AFD with only 3 editors (excluding the nominating editor) participating is a "consensus" that can overrule policy (or guidelines) than I am fully against that notion. On the other hand if numerous deletion discussions all start to show the same pattern, than it may be time to consider that the overall consensus is changing in a certain area. In which case there needs to be wider input - RFC, Village pump a newly worded Policy, etc. However the fact is, still, that simply a "rough consensus" in a deletion discussion should not over rule existing policy or guideline at the time of the discussion. I also think it is key that the current wording that indicates any deletion discussion must take into account that "where it is very unlikely that an article on the topic can exist without breaching policy" than the policy needs to "be respected above individual opinions" needs to stay. As Moonriddengirl has said above it is "the scale of involvement in forming consensus" in regards to Policy - and that scale is "on wide scale", which deletion discussions usually are not. Also a "slight" secondary issue is the use of the word "article" - it has been pointed out to me, more than once, that anything contained in userspace is not an "article" thusly any policy or guideline that relates to an "article" is not relevant to anything in userspace - and that includes this guideline, at least any portion that says "article" and not "page". So I would suggest simply changing the word "article" to "page". Soundvisions1 (talk) 04:13, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, if no more than 4 editors care enough about a nomination to comment then the discussion must be closed on the basis of what those editors argue. And, yes if there is consensus amongst those 4 then that consensus should be capable of overriding WP:NALBUMS. It sounds like the closing admin might have been too quick to discount the argument of the nominator, but I can't really comment unless I get a link to the discussion.

In addition, note that WP:NALBUMS is a guideline, the paragraph we are discussing is about policies special standing in regards to consensus. The idea that guidelines overrides consensus is one that consensus is very much against.

The problem with wide scale vs narrow scale is, as I have pointed out highter up in this discussion, twofold. For the first are policy discussions by necessity general, there might be special circumstances that is not taken into account. So the goal of writing an encyclopedia might be better served by ignoring policy. For the second, consensus can change, what the community agreed on a year ago might not be what they agree on today. This means that written policy might lag behind de facto policy. Taemyr (talk) 06:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

First I see you again removed the entire paragraph replacing it with one line - I see no consensus here for doing that. I see you make a suggestion and Dougweller said "I'm happy to have the statement clarified so long as have have it clear that consensus at an AfD can't over-ride policy" and Moonriddegirl said they were "comfortable with your wording". Thincat seems to neither agree or disagree with the wording but s/he says that the paragraph should be "very substantially reworded or, preferably, removed". My comments make no mention of removing anything at all but rather keeping some of the wording. There was no consensus to remove the entire paragraph or replace it with only your wording, so I have reverted.

I Used WP:NALBUMS as an example as it is tied into Policy - namely that in order for an album to have an article it must be verified in reliable sources. It was not - "...requires that articles and information be verifiable, avoid being original research... is a requirement across the board for articles, this line is important not only in this guideline but in all guidelines. The idea that "if no more than 4 editors care enough about a nomination to comment then the discussion must be closed on the basis of what those editors argue" goes against this guideline that indicates to not count heads. Three editors coming into a deletion discussion and arguing a keep based on valid opinions but non-arguments should never, IMO, be allowed to override policy or guidelines. The accepted, and current, Policy is that information on Wikipedia be "be verifiable, avoid being original research, not violate copyright" and you seem to be indicating that 3 editors in a deletion discussion can argue, for example:
1. "Keep: There is no requirement this article needing to be verifiable."
2. "Keep: Doing no harm"
3. "Keep: It is not WP:OR"

And that those three opinions simply be counted, ignoring "Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious", and, if the page in quesiton contained information that said "My friends high school band is great and their CD is coming out December 2010", this is now "consensus" and that these types of articles be allowed to stay. Maybe a better question/statement would be is there any Policy that says such arguments as "Keep: Not doing any harm" or "Delete: I don't like it" are valid and, more direct, are non-arguments (i.e- not based on policy or guideline, based on an essay or personal opinion, or a belief that no such policy or guideline exists) allowed as valid arguments in deletion discussions. Likewise, as your wording hints at this, as Policy is what is currently being discussed in relation to deletion discussions and not guidelines I do agree that it needs to indicate that Policy and Guidelines are allowable arguments.

Suggested wording, including Taemyr's wording (Changes in green):

Wikipedia policy, which requires that ~~articles and~~ information be verifiable, avoid being original research, not violate copyright, and be written from a neutral point of view ~~is not negotiable, and~~ cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by ~~editors'~~ a deletion discussion's rough consensus. A closing admin must determine whether ~~any article~~ information (possible alternate text "any information contained on the page being discussed") violates policy, and where it is very unlikely that an article on the ~~topic~~ subject can exist without breaching policy, it must be respected above individual opinions. The policies and guidelines of Wikipedia have broad consensus and must be seen as weighty arguments that can not lightly be set aside.

Does that read better? Soundvisions1 (talk) 13:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the rest of wording is accepted I strongly object to adding the "and guidelines". Guidelines themselves say that they can be "treated with common sense and the occasional exception". I cannot find this page ever referring to guidelines as such. As an example if this is added then I am strongly concerned that this will lead to articles such as on inhabited towns/villages which are fully verifiable but do not meet the notability guidelines at this time being deleted by admins closing AFDs despite there being a consensus to keep (or no consensus to delete) in the AFD. Admins could then cite this guideline as a reason for ignoring the keep opinions as not based on the main notability guideline.

Adding that wording to this page would also contradict the Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines policy in my opinion, as that policy says that "Guidelines are considered more advisory than policies, with exceptions more likely to occur". Given that exceptions are likely we should not set up guidelines as something for admins to enforce at AFD above the consensus of established editors in AFDs. Davewild (talk) 18:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The use of guideline/s is not being added anew and from what I can tell it was first added on June 12, 2006. My reading of all things "wiki" is that policy trumps guideline and that guideline trumps a few (some? Less than 10? Less than 5?) users personal opinion. For me this stems from a policy that might say "Don't do this" that needs to be better defined - thusly guidelines. "Don't do this unless you have that". Yes the guideline is "more advisory" however it would be hoped there had been a wider "consensus" than is normally found in a deletion discussion. If you take a random look at deletion discussions you see guidlines being cited all the time. I see no policy, for example, that says winning a Grammy allows for an article - but there is a well used, and established, guideline that does say that. I would hope that a deletion discussion that showed a nom for "Fails "Criteria for musicians and ensembles", number 8" was met with 8 "Delete:Subject did not win a Grammy" opinions as a "rough consensus" would not mean that the other 11 criteria found at "Criteria for musicians and ensembles" are now useless. I think most are looking at this as a "Keep" issue but really it goes both ways. "Delete" opinions not backed up with valid arguments based on either established policy or guidelines should be discounted as much as "keep" opinions not backed up with valid arguments. Soundvisions1 (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not arguing against this being a guideline or against there being guidelines. That version you refer to (and the rest of the history) you are citing shows that guidelines have never been cited here as a reason for ignoring/downgrading opinions in AFDs - indeed that version of the page only made 3 policies non-negotiable (WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV) The point about citing a guideline in an AFD is that you will very likely persuade other editors to agree with you thus gaining a consensus for that view on the AFD because guidelines reflect what the consensus of editors on wikipedia is (or at least they are meant to). Unlike with policies where there are legal (WP:Copyright) or foundation principles (WP:NPOV), etc. that require that we enforce them strictly guidelines reflect the consensus of the community. As you say this works both way, WP:N even says that "Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not suitable for inclusion". Arguing based on guideline will likely gain consensus in most cases, but there are too many cases where there is support (or at least no consensus) for not strictly enforcing guidelines (such as for towns and villages in WP:N) for admins to start ignoring opinions established editors because they are not based on guidelines. Davewild (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing for or against this being a guideline or not either - what I was saying was that omitting "guideline" from the wording may seem as though we are implying guidelines are not valid arguments to consider. And what I was pointing to had to do with the wording saying that a Policy "cannot be superseded by any other guidelines" or "rough consensus". I get what you are saying now though as far as "strictly enforcing" a guideline vs "strictly enforcing" a Policy but I still think that wording needs to be in place that suggests the hierarchy of things which is general accepted as: policy > guideline > deletion discussion consensus. That affirms the wording that has existed since 2006 that we are talking about now but perhaps was either laid out, either not explicitly enough or too explicitly via the use of "is not negotiable" (Or "held to be non-negotiable" as it was worded when first introduced on June 12, 2006). I think the removal of "is not negotiable" might help to ease some concerns that feel policy is unchangeable, although in sense it should be "non-negotiable" as far as deletion discussion go. Guidelines on the other hand - that is more what you are wanting to clarify if I am reading your comments correctly. Soundvisions1 (talk) 21:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

What I am wanting to say is something like "Arguments based on guidelines can be weighted more than arguments not based on policy or guideline. However neither passing nor failing a guideline is grounds for overuling the clear consensus of established contributors to an XFD." Guidelines are given some weight but are distinct from policy, where a very clear failure of policy, such as an article being shown to be a copyvio, requires deletion regardless of however many people in an AFD are arguing for keeping the article for other reasons.

Distinct from this I have never liked the wording of this sentence "A closing admin must determine whether any article violates policy" as I do not like the case where an admin can come along and decide an article violates policy, in cases where there is a reasonable dispute over whether the article does or does not violate policy. If there is a reasonable disagreement with no clear consensus either way in the AFD then the admin should not impose their own opinion. Something should be here about a clear policy violation requiring deletion but the admin should not overrule reasonable opinions on whether an article violates policy. There are many cases where the interpretation of policy reasonably differs among editors and the closing admin should avoid just imposing their own view. Davewild (talk) 22:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Davewild; WP:Policy says, "Both need to be approached with common sense: adhere to the spirit rather than the letter of the rules, and be prepared to ignore the rules on the rare occasions when they conflict with the goal of improving the encyclopedia." So it is not just the guidelines that can be set aside. The only thing that consensus can not set aside is foundation decrees, including that wikipedia should adhere to California laws.Taemyr (talk) 23:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Soundvisions, if the only arguments other than the nomination is the ones you list then the closing admin should discard them. The first as being an unsupported personal opinion, and one that is unlikely to gain weight amongst other editors. The second as being meaningless. The third is a bit more tricky, if the deletion argument is based on OR. However as it stands it is just an opinion, with no real argument as to why the article passes WP:NOR. So all three can be disregarded pr "Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted.", which I am not arguing should be removed. However the admin should also note that all except the nominator all those discussing the issue have been of the opinion that the article should be kept, so he should be reluctant to close as a delete. The solution is to relist to gain a wider consensus. Taemyr (talk) 23:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no way that policy can be worded to avoid human judgment. Even the case of a copyvio, there is the question of whether material can be rescued from it, or whether there is actually a free license, or a fair use justificiation/. We all agree on V. , but we do not agree on what constitutes sufficient verification , nor on what sources can be used for different things. Attempts to write hard and fast rules always fail--the world does not come in conveniently labeled packages. We all agree on some matters of BLPO, but the rules leave a great deal to judgments: after what amount of publicity does Do No Harm no longer have a meaning? We agree that OR is not permitted. We do not agree on just what is OR. And for t he guidelines such as RS and N that permit exceptions., there is very little guide about just what ought to be excepted. We reject spam, but its much harder to define it. Our basic concept, that we are making an encyclopedia, founders of the question of just what sort of an encyclopedia we want to make. That's why I sometimes think we'd do best with arbitraty rules: shopping malls above a certain size are notable; others aren't , and if necessary pick a number for the cutoff by chance--or even by poll--do we want 1, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, or 10 hundred thousand square feet? How large is a city before its mayor is notable? How much need an academic publish before being considered an authority?

the on only way we can fairly use this is to have not one but many people decide. And then accept what ever they do devicde. Admins can removed sockpuppetts and spas, and people who refuse to give a reason. And then we assume the others have weighed t he various rules, decided which are the most important factors, and come to a conclusion. The admin that states what it is. His role is to count the jury, after making sure the jury consists of people willing to do things fairly. The only cure for not trusting the general public here is to have a chosen group who can decide independently of them. I do not trust either myself of my fellow admins are accepted as authorities for this/, just to be able to tell what people in general want. Yes, i wouldnt mind an encyclopedia in which i could make all the rules-- but who else would want to joint? DGG (talk) 09:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for additional section on deletion summaries

I propose to add something like this to this guideline, as separate section titled "Deletion summaries":

The deletion dialog contains a space for a deletion summary. This summary should be concise and informative, explaining the reason for the deletion and linking to any relevant debate. It should not contain an explicit or implicit attack on any editor, nor should it make light of the page's creation or deletion. Admins should remember that the likeliest person to read a deletion summary is the creator or editor of the deleted page, and that such a person has put effort into the page and will not want to see that effort disparaged.

Comments and further suggestions are welcome. This is probably a little strong as I've written it--it ought to be possible to allow for some leeway and still make the point clear. Chick Bowen 02:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Does the "should not contain an attack on any editor" mean that we can't use G3 as a speedy deletion reason, because that would be an implicit assertion that the creator of the page is a vandal? —David Eppstein (talk) 02:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course not. What alternative language might make this clear? Chick Bowen 02:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

A couple comments: "make light of the page's creation or deletion" - This seems to be specifically aimed at the recent "Secret pages" thing, is there anything else to suggest this is a real issue and not a one-off or extremely infrequent occurrence? "and that such a person has put effort into the page" - Vandals and other disruptive users have their pages deleted too. I'm not saying we should insult vandals in the deletion summary, but that statement about effort is certainly not universally true. Mr.Z-man 03:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

This is true, but hardly a big deal, I think--the important thing is professionalism. As for jocular summaries, it has come up from time to time, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on an instance at the moment. As I said, I do think this is probably too strong as written. Perhaps a simpler statement would work better:

The deletion dialog contains a space for a deletion summary. This summary should be concise and informative, explaining the reason for the deletion and linking to any relevant debate. Admins should keep in mind the No personal attacks policy.

Or something like that. Chick Bowen 03:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this is so obvious, it doesn't need to be written down. Of course you can't make personal attacks in a deletion summary, just as you shouldn't make personal attacks anywhere on the project! Apart from that I think the guidelines for deletion summaries should be the same as for edit summaries: concise and informative, explaining the reason for the edit/deletion, as you've worded it above. Martin^msgj 13:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion is to be a last resort

this edit was reverted, prompting this discussion.

Administrators should be admonished to delete articles only 1) when deletion has been the consensus AND 2) no other alternative per WP:ATD is reasonable. In most cases, this won't apply, but I've seen a large number of cases filled with "non notable--delete" !votes, and a suggestion or two to merge the article to somewhere reasonable and notable. An admin comes along, counts noses, and nukes the article without ever commenting on the possibility of a merger.

Likewise, I see many reasonably-phrased articles deleted without a redirect left behind. Merging, or redirecting poor merger candidates, is a preferred outcome: redirects are cheap, history is or can be preserved per GFDL, and the will of the consensus (this article doesn't belong in this place in this form) is enacted. Jclemens (talk) 19:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Point 2 only really applies if the alternatives have not been discussed during the deletion debate. Even then, if there is a clear consensus to delete, but the consensus ignores a proposal of merging then it's better to refocus the debate rather than overriding the consensus. Redirects can be created in place of the deleted article, so a plausible redirect is not a reason not to delete. Taemyr (talk) 18:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. What I'm talking about is something where there are 9 delete !votes, a few uninspired keep !votes, and one late !vote to merge the article to somewhere sensible. If none of the delete responses specifically said "nuke it, don't merge it to anywhere" is a merge outcome really a violation of consensus? I'm thinking not. Mind you, my proposal doesn't dictate outcomes to administrators, just remind them that WP:ATD applies to everyone, and that the admin should be the WP:ATD'er of last resort if the AfD !voters haven't adequately considered those alternatives. Jclemens (talk) 18:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

As the reverter, I think the place to propose this major change to current WP practice is on the Deletion Policy page, not here. Nowhere in that policy does it say that the WP:ATD alternatives MUST be done instead of deletion, which is how I read the addition proposed here. The alternatives are only alternatives, the policy does not say they are preferred alternatives. I think admins. need to WP:AGF on the part of !voters, and not infer that someone suggesting Delete was unaware of, or failed to consider, WP:ATD.UnitedStatesian (talk) 04:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, it would help this discussion if you pointed to specific AfD discussions as examples of what you think the problem is. UnitedStatesian (talk) 04:46, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The admin should be aware the he is considering arguments, not counting votes. So if none of the delete arguments address the possibility of a merge it's difficult to see how he can infer any consensus. Taemyr (talk) 09:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I would be very surprised to find even one admin. on all of Wikipedia who agreed with that last sentence. UnitedStatesian (talk) 11:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about agreeing with it... actually, I'm not even sure I understand it. Can you elaborate Taemyr? Jclemens (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, you are supposed to consider the strength of the arguments. And in general an argument of the type "delete, not notable since none of the sources provided are independent" will not be an argument against merging. Taemyr (talk) 23:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed it will. All content on WP has to be cited to reliable sources; if none of the content on a page is so cited, then it can't be merged. Stifle (talk) 08:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Not independent does not mean not reliable, which is why I chose this example. Taemyr (talk) 23:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I think we can agree that content which meets WP:V but not WP:N is the ideal sort of content to be upmerged into an article of broader scope and more clearly established notability. THAT is the sort of content which I believe should be generally kept through a merge, even if the topic isn't notable. Jclemens (talk) 05:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's the clearest example of why articles that can be merged might not be capable of standing on their own. However declaring this content as an ideal example for upmerge is a bit overinclusive. Just because content can be sourced does not mean that it is appropriate, for that other concerns also come into play. Such as WP:DUE, WP:NOT, WP:LENGTH and stylistic concerns. Taemyr (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Admins are supposed to judge the consensus at the AFD, rather than bring in their own opinion on what "alternative to deletion" might apply. If most of the people at an AFD !vote for deletion, and the admin closes as merge, you can bet there'll be a stampede to DRV. Stifle (talk) 08:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Since when did consensus mean majority? Also see above [1] for my view on this concern. Taemyr (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely right, Taemyr. If 10 people argue for deletion without sound, policy-based reasons, and one for merge based on a policy, then consensus is to merge. I'm not asking that we change consensus rules, simply to remind admins what they are. Jclemens (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Arguments not directly based in policy is important too. Also, I don't think there is a clear policy on when to merge, it's always a content issue for the suggested target. So you are over simplifying. Taemyr (talk) 23:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes, typing all of the conditions and circumstances we already discussed above would be a bit more work. Jclemens (talk) 04:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not talking about what should happen, I'm talking about what does happen. And yes, if most of the people at an AFD !vote for deletion, and the admin closes as merge, there will be a stampede to DRV, like it or not. Stifle (talk) 09:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Possibly, but why is this a problem? Taemyr (talk) 17:47, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it could really be a GOOD thing. Pointless "dramah" is to be avoided, but if a ton of people were disssatisfied with a merge vs. a delete, either 1) they're right and the merge should be overturned at DRV, but more likely 2) they don't understand the point, goals, and effects of a merge and the DRV ratification of the close would be educational for them. There are plenty of people, of whatever stripe, whom I've observed trying to use AfD as a de facto censorship court. Making merges a more likely outcome should hopefully frustrate them in those efforts. Jclemens (talk) 18:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Using wikipedia process to force others to adhere to your view in general indicates that there is something wrong with the process. So I am not sure if what you describe is a good thing. Taemyr (talk) 23:50, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, what? Everyone on Wikipedia has their own view of what's good and proper; the policies are an outgrowth of pointed (and sometimes regrettably heated) discussion between people who have differing views of what the encyclopedia should encompass. Eliminating conflict is impossible, and fanning the flames of it is indeed counterproductive, but disagreements on a topic are the only way that consensus can change. My point, then, is that such conflict, since unavoidable, is a necessary part of both ratifying and communicating that consensus has indeed changed. Jclemens (talk) 04:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I think WP:Deletion review/Log/2009 April 18#The Secret Mitchell (closed) may be a relevant example. I had linked this discussion there. Flatscan (talk) 04:40, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Deletion guidelines for administrators

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Contents

[edit] re fluff

[edit] Voting and consensus

[edit] 'Protecting deleted pages' needs an update

[edit] Wikipedia:non-negotiable does not exist

[edit] Suggestion for additional section on deletion summaries

[edit] Deletion is to be a last resort

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