Wikipedia talk:Citing sources

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Contents 1 Retrieval dates: redundant for sources with official publication dates? 2 Good Articles 3 should it be page or pages 4 citing websites that use flash 5 Citing directly after a quotation 6 Looking For Modoc Scroll Of Indians 7 Internal consistency is unnecessarily restrictive

[edit] Retrieval dates: redundant for sources with official publication dates?

This subject keeps coming up. There is an extensive discussion in the archive. Please add new comments here, not in the archive. --EnOreg (talk) 14:20, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Good Articles

WP:GNGA#Inline_citations asserts that <ref> tags must always be placed immediately after punctuation -- a practice that I always use, because I happen to like it, but one which I thought was not actually required anywhere. In fact, I was rather under the impression that we used the original author's style/spelling/etc unless there was a good reason to change it, and that this might reasonably be construed as following the punctuation pattern.

I have long-term concerns about the Good Article process being pushed well beyond its original "pretty good" mandate into "Really, Very, Extremely, Officially Certified Good Articles" territory, and since this "essay" is recommended by the GA process and followed quite closely by both nominators and reviewers, it has a lot of power to shape "normal practice", even if that's not the stated intention.

If any of the regular editors here would like to take a look at this section, I'd appreciate it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC) who is not watching this page

[edit] should it be page or pages

I have noticed the the pywikipediabot has changed a few citation templated to say page instead of pages even when the are more than 1 page. For example ir might say pages= 22. Is this appropriate and if so where is it mentioned?--Kumioko (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a mistake. Notify the bot owner by leaving a message on his or her talk page. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 03:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.--Kumioko (talk) 13:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] citing websites that use flash

A question has arisen in the Pro Wrestling project about citing a flash based website where you can't directly link to the subpage the info is on. Is there a general take on this problem? Can you site a site when you can't directly link to the page the information is on?? MPJ-DK (talk) 12:53, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

This question has come up before – do a search of the talk page archives if you want to read the previous discussion. My view is that it would be best to find a different reference if you can, but if you really want (or need) to cite the flash website, then just provide a link to the home page and describe the subpage and how to get to it. For instance, state the title of the subpage if there is one, and explain what buttons or links a reader should click on to reach the subpage. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 17:18, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Citing directly after a quotation

According to WP:Citing sources#When quoting someone a citation must directly follow a quote (I'm ignoring the other location for the time being because it's irrelevant to my query.) However, does that really have to be taken so literally? For instance, look at the this section of the article that I am currently working on: Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen#Reception. This edit is perfectly in-line with what is said on the policy page, but if you look at the article, it simply makes more sense to cite the entire thought, as opposed to attributing every sentence to the same citation, like WP:Citing sources#When quoting someone seems to advocate. It seems to me that the way the section was written did not account for the possibility that more info about the review/paper would follow the quote. Perhaps the section should be taken liberally? Artichoker^[talk] 16:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Looking For Modoc Scroll Of Indians

I am new at this so please bare with me. I am Modoc Indian. My mother had all the paperwork i.e. scroll, type of Indian, ect. When she passed away, I could not find any of the paperwork she had. We all were paid a certain amount for our land, but still being able to use it. I would like to know how I can find out where the scrolls are located and ask for information regarding how to get myself and my childrens names on the scrolls. I know we are on them. Need a phone number or address to get me started. I have been looking all over the net and cannot seem to find anything regarding this information. If you could be of any help I would surely appreciate it.

Thanking you in advance. Pat Roth aka Rambo and Maloney Rambo from Mom, Irish from Dad. My e-mail is : charityblues@hotmail.com. Address Pat Roth, P.O. Box 720, Wofford Heights, CA. I was born in Klamath Falls, lived in Merill till I was 5, then moved with Mom to San Francisco. Still in California, am located in the beginning of the Sierra Mountains.

I look forward to hearing from those who have any info I can get.

Thanks, Pat 173.16.63.222 (talk) 16:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have forwarded this post to Modoc. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 06:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Just note that article talk pages aren't for finding out info such as this. I've replied on the Modoc talk page, however. In the future, I'd suggest Wikipedia:Reference desk. Thanks! Katr67 (talk) 18:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Internal consistency is unnecessarily restrictive

The problem is that different articles in the wikipedia are not mutually consistent. This means that moving appropriate references from one article to another in general cannot be done without significant rework, work which does not improve the accuracy or readability of the wikipedia or anything else of any importance. We're not doing this to make pretty looking references for someone with OCD, we add references for purely practical reasons; any form of reference that permits the fact to be checked is fine.

Can anyone give a completely convincing practical argument for this, otherwise I am simply going to remove it.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". - (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 02:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Citations can be added in a different format, just as words can be misspelled. Eventually someone will fix it. I don't see that it is actually very difficult to reformat a citation when copying it to a new article. Copying citations is somewhat strange as a concept; one should really be looking at the source again to make sure that it supports the claims being cited in the new article. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The simplest answer is that an article looks better with a consistent citation style. Note that it is acceptable to mix general references, full citations in footnotes and shortened citations in footnotes all in the same article. Note that it is also acceptable to mix most of the citation templates (like {{cite book}}, {{cite web}}, {{cite news}} etc).

However, judging by the first sentence of your post, you are aware of the deeper issue behind the consistency rule. There are few situations where we don't mix citation styles/methods:

• Citation templates with hand-written citations, because some editors hate citation templates and don't want them in their articles.
• Handwritten citations in one format (such as APA style) with handwritten citations in a different format (such as MLA style), because there are editors who prefer these styles over all others.
• Parenthetical references with other citation methods, because there are editors who prefer this method over any other, or at least think they are more appropriate for articles on some academic subjects.

These disagreements have a long history in Wikipedia. We've agreed to keep each article consistent, so that these disagreements don't flare up. If, for example, an article doesn't use citation templates, then there is a good chance that there is an editor working on that article who hates citation templates. If you were to add a citation template, that editor would be annoyed, and edit warring may follow. Basically, the consistency rule helps keep the peace. We don't fight over articles -- whatever citation style is there, stays there. That's the compromise. We keep articles consistent, in part because we have been unable to agree on a way to make all of Wikipedia consistent. These disagreements are not going to go away soon. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 06:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

So we're making people jump through pointless hoops even when there are no disagreements at all?- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 19:17, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess it isn't that obvious, but if you read the guideline like a lawyer you'll note that it really only prohibits the three cases I mentioned above. There five recommended ways to present citations in articles. Three of them can work together, one of them isn't recommended for WP:Good articles (embedded links), and the last one is mentioned above (parenthetical references). As for putting together the citation, handwritten citations must all match (as mentioned above), you can't mix handwritten with templates (ditto), but the templates can be (almost) freely mixed. (The one exception is {{Citation}}, which uses commas, not periods, but it is trivial to change {{Citation}} to {{Cite book}} or whatever. Or leave it for future bots.) ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 12:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

As Carl said, no one has to jump through hoops. Go ahead and add the refs; don't bother about the style if you don't want to. Someone who likes doing that sort of thing will come along and clean it up, sooner or later. --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what universities are like outside the US, but in the US many university professors insist students carefully follow whichever style guildeline has been adopted for a particular course; papers that fail to comply receive lower grades. It is possible that people who attended university in the US will carry this attitude about citations forward in later life and suspect that any article they see with inconsistent citations is poorly written in general, just as many people suspect that articles with poor spelling are poorly written in general. So perhaps consistent citations adds to the credibility of Wikipedia articles. --Jc3s5h (talk) 13:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)