Wikipedia:Non-free content review

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Shortcuts: WP:NFR WP:NFCR The Non-free content review page is a place where Wikipedians discuss whether media without free content licenses are in compliance with Wikipedia's non-free content criteria. A list of current content review requests is maintained on the Category:Non-free content review requested page. Uses that are legal, or perceived to be legal, may still not be allowed by Wikipedia policy on non-free content. The primary goal of this policy is to protect Wikipedia's mission to produce content that is perpetually free for unlimited distribution, modification and application by all users in all media. Wikipedia's policy embodies a compromise between this goal and another central part of our mission, production of a quality encyclopedia. As a further concern, we wish to minimize legal exposure. We, therefore, permit only a limited amount of non-free content under strictly defined circumstances that are deliberately more restrictive than United States fair use law. [edit] How to nominate Please follow these steps to nominate the media for review: Add the {{Non-free review}} template to the media page. Start a new section with level 1 header (==) at the bottom of this page, using a link to the media as the header title.[1] For example: ==[[:File:ImageNameHere]] == Include reason(s) for nominating (references to specific WP:NFC criteria are helpful) and the article(s) for which fair use is to be evaluated. Be sure to sign your comments with ~~~~. [edit] How to close When a discussion has run its course, it can be closed. Active discussions should not be closed unless there is a clear consensus for a particular action, or more than 4 weeks have passed since the media was listed here. Generally, discussions should run for at least 7 days. The clearer the consensus, the sooner the discussion can be closed. Any editor may close a discussion. [edit] Closing the discussion Put a {{discussion top}} template above the media's header. After the last comment, add four dashes (----) on a new line. Enter closing comments and/or action taken under the dashes. Be sure to sign your comments with ~~~~. Put a {{discussion bottom}} template under your comments. See this diff for an example closure. [edit] Media action Depending upon the outcome of the discussion, several actions may be taken. If the media is to be kept, simply replace the {{Non-free review}} template on the media page with {{Non-free reviewed}}. If the media is to be removed, the closer should remove the media from the applicable articles. If the media is removed from all articles, it may be tagged with {{Di-orphaned fair use}} or, if the closer is an admin, deleted at their discretion. If the media has a remediable problem, the closer is encouraged to implement the fix or tag the media as appropriate. For example: If the media is deemed to be too high resolution/fidelity (NFCC#3), add the {{Non-free reduce}} template to the media page. If the media does not have a source (NFCC#10A), add the {{subst:nsd}} template to the media page. If the media does not have a copyright tag (NFCC#10B), add the {{subst:nld}} template to the media page. If the media does not have a rationale (NFCC#10C), add the {{subst:frn}} template to the media page. [edit] Notes ^ To nominate multiple media files in one section, title the section "Multiple files" (or similar wording, at your discretion) and ensure all files are linked in your comments. edit guidelines

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Contents 1 How to nominate 2 How to close 2.1 Closing the discussion 2.2 Media action 3 Notes 4 Sample of screenshots with Windows/OS X etc. non-free widgets 5 History of graphic design 6 File:Beatrixandclausdancing.jpg 7 All uploads by User:Boxing245 8 File:Carminebuffy.jpg 9 MSN-02 Zeong 10 File:PinterDavidBaron.jpg 11 File:William Irvine Book Cover.JPG 12 File:Missingno-ny.png 13 File:Mildred Jeter and Richard Loving.jpg 14 File:Apple Computer Logo.svg

[edit] Sample of screenshots with Windows/OS X etc. non-free widgets

Hi,

I tried to start some discussion of this on Template_talk:Non-free_software_screenshot#Windows_UI_elements_etc. (possibly not the right place, so direct the discussion to another place if you feel so); anyway:

On commons:Commons:Screenshots, there's been some discussion on UI elements like the Windows close/minimize buttons etc. not being free. While they might qualify for fair use, they probably fail the Wikipedia non-free policy if they are replaceable, i.e. if a similar image could be made without them (possibly using a free system or something), or they could be cropped.

In my experience, while there are such policies on Wikipedia, they aren't systematically enforced, so I went through the first 100 hits when searching for "screenshot" in the File: space. Here are some images to consider (a mere sample); I'm not tagging them yet, as I'm not sure enough about the issue (I think mass tagging without discussing first would be rude anyway). Note that all these were among the first 100 hits, and I only considered those that were screenshots of software and not a full-screen game without any OS widgets (which often still are non-free). One of them actually contains album covers, and a couple contain Wikimedia logos which I understand render them non-free.

File:Old_project.net_screenshot.gif

File:Flcelloguy's_Tool_UI.PNG

File:Wikipedia_mainpage_of.PNG

File:Musicportal.gif

File:WM_screwedupimage.PNG

File:2007-E-uncat.png

File:Commonist_screenshot.png

File:Inkscape_screenshot.png

File:Screenshot-big.gif

File:FeedDemon_screenshot.png

File:TUGZip_screenshot.png

File:VMware_screenshot.png

File:Ytmnd-screenshot.jpg

File:Zultrax-3.39-screenshot.png

File:BBEdit_Screenshot.png

File:PowerArchiver_screenshot.png

File:GOLD_screenshot.gif

File:GayOne-screenshot.jpg

File:Screenshot-AlbumPic.png

File:Openmotif_screenshot.png

File:Commonplace-screenshot.jpg

File:Freehand-screenshot.jpg

File:Ichitaro_2006_screenshot.jpg

I explore Wikipedia systematically anyway (I do copyediting), so I might spend some time tagging images like this, if there's a consensus of what I should do to them. --SLi (talk) 19:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

There's no specific blanket action to take for all the images. In my opinion, the Windows window design and minimize/maximize/close icons are too simple to attract copyright, so a screenshot of free software that just happens to be running in Windows is OK (provided it doesn't show taskbar or a copyrighted background, etc.

Some of those images don't have a sufficient rationale, though, and fall to be tagged {{subst:nrd}}.

Anything with the WMF logo is also non-free and needs to be tagged appropriately. Stifle (talk) 13:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

To expand on this, these images basically fall into one of the following categories:

1. Images on Commons, which are outside our responsibility
2. Screenshots of free software which only display freely-licensed material (I'm including a window with minimize/maximize/close icons in this)
3. Screenshots of non-free software which have a proper rationale
4. Screenshots of non-free software which do not have a proper rationale
5. Screenshots of free software which include non-free content (including Wikimedia logo, other copyrighted programs, copyrighted text or images, Windows interface, etc.)

What action to be taken on the image depends on which category it's in. #1 is out of our hands, #2 and #3 are probably fine. #4 should be tagged with {{subst:nrd}}, {{subst:dfu}}, or similar, and #5 should be tagged as {{PUI}}. Stifle (talk) 13:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I doubt modern UI elements would be considered simple enough to not merit copyright protection at least in the US. Of course I think this question is somewhat academic in the sense that whether to allow those images or not is only a Wikipedia policy question, since they quite certainly would be fair use. But the bar for copyright protection is usually quite low. Old black-and-white UI widgets with a cross as a close button would not be copyrightable, but I'm fairly certain if we're talking about more artistic wighets, and e.g. having the Windows logo in one of the widgets (as I think is often the case in Windows) and more stylish widgets, then the UI at least as a whole would get copyright protection. (And how about the Windows panel... bar... whatever the thing in the bottom part of the screen is called?) I also think showing a Windows logo wouldn't be any different from showing a Google logo (for example the small site icon in a browser), even if it's embedded in the standard UI of Windows.

In any case, the nice folks at Commons seem to have discussed this issue quite a bit. --SLi (talk) 18:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] History of graphic design

This article is a glorified gallery/slide show. And it is peppered with non-free images. For some topics, there are 4 non-free images illustrating the exact same point. And it isn't even clear to me why we need so much non-free imagery. Many of the non-free images have little relation, if any, to the the text of the article. It seems like massive image abuse. I wanted to get other opinions on this, and perhaps solicit help cleaning up the article's images.-Andrew c ^[talk] 00:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

That's quite a mess. I'm going to see if I can FFD some of the images. Stifle (talk) 11:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Most of them are likely to be {{PD-old}} actually and are mistagged as non-free. Stifle (talk) 11:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] File:Beatrixandclausdancing.jpg

This was tagged as replaceable. One of the subjects is deceased, so it seems like it may not be replaceable in that article, but the use in List of Dutch consorts and Beatrix of the Netherlands is questionable. Stifle (talk) 21:16, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe it should be kept in the article on Queen Beatrix as well. The marriage between Beatrix and Claus was highly controversial at the time and the subject of much discussion. During the marriage, Claus was never far from the public's eye and his popularity increased dramatically through the years. Claus was a major part of Beatrix' life and reign both private and in the eye of the public. I don't think it's replacable since Claus is deceased. Rpvdk (talk) 12:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

If the purpose is merely to show Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus, there is a free image at File:DN-ST-82-08158.jpg. Unless there is a need to show them dancing, this image is replaceable. There can be no objection that the free image is not a portrait of Prince Claus, for neither image is a portrait of him. If a portrait of him is needed, I would be amazed if (possibly non-free) portrait is not available.

As for the argument that the non-free image should be used on Queen Beatrix's page, that would have been a valid argument for using the image if it were free. But in order to use a non-free image on Wikipedia the use must substantially increase readers' understanding of the topic. This use certainly does not do that. —teb728 t c 01:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe it does. Claus was German and had served in the HitlerYouth, and with the war still fresh on people's minds there were massive protests against the marriage. Over the years that followed, he became much more popular and loved. The article really needs to have an image of them together, as their marriage was probably the single most controversial event in Beatrix' history. Rpvdk (talk) 15:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The article can say that in text (as it does); seeing the photo doesn't make it significantly more understandable, as is required for a non-free image. If you really think the article needs an image of them together, it has to be a free photo like the one I cited above. —teb728 t c 19:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

That's a really old picture not to mention you can't even see Claus' face. I don't think that makes a quality substition. I do feel that an image of them together adds a lot to the article for the reasons listed above. It might not appear that way to someone not familiar with Beatrix and Claus, but as someone who grew up in the Netherlands it almost goes without saying. I'll see if I can get some more of the article's editors involved and get their views so maybe we can get a consensus. Rpvdk (talk) 07:31, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

As you say it would be nice to have a picture of them together, but it would not significantly increase readers' understanding as required by WP:NFCC#8; so only a free picture could be used. —teb728 t c 08:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe it does add to the understanding, for all the reasons listed before. The marriage is a very important part of Beatrix' life and deserves more than just text. Rpvdk (talk) 05:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

There is is another (free?) photo of the royal couple, showing the prince's face, at nl:Bestand:BeaClaus.jpg. It is the photo used for identification at nl:Claus van Amsberg. —teb728 t c 01:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Good find, but that image appears to be using a fair use tag as well. Rpvdk (talk) 15:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] All uploads by User:Boxing245

Moved to here from Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2009 May 26 - 58.8.4.175 (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2009 May 24#All uploads by User:Boxing245

See also User talk:Boxing245 for previous history of image copyright problems

See also deletion of {{di-disputed fair use rationale}} tag by uploader - 21:59, 26 May 2009

• File:Boxing Match.jpg - see http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/73132017/Bongarts
• File:DanielCraigOO7.jpg
• File:Christian Bale Tuxedo.jpg
• File:Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent.jpg
• File:The Penguin in Lego.jpg
• File:Catwoman in Lego.jpg
• File:Bane in Lego.jpg
• File:Clayface in Lego.jpg
• File:Harley Quinn in Lego.jpg
• File:Joker in Lego.jpg
• File:Mad Hatter in Lego.jpg
• File:Poison Ivy in Lego.jpg
• File:Two-Face in Lego.jpg
• File:Scarecrow in Lego.jpg
• File:Man-Bat in Lego.jpg
• File:Ridler in Lego.jpg
• File:Tomasz Adamek's Defence.jpg
• File:Hush in lego.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.8.11.41 (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] File:Carminebuffy.jpg

[edit] MSN-02 Zeong

[edit] File:PinterDavidBaron.jpg

[edit] File:William Irvine Book Cover.JPG

[edit] File:Missingno-ny.png

Image used in MissingNo. to illustrate different forms of a glitch that shows up in a Pokemon game (you can skim the article for more context). I put a comment on the article talk page saying that the non-free image is not needed because a) the reader doesn't need to see exactly what all forms of the glitch look like, only needs to know that there is a glitch; b) three of the forms of the glitch are images that are already used elsewhere in the game, and the fourth form is already showed in another non-free image in the article; and c) the whole image could be replaced by a simple text description (already present in the article, When viewed, it will commonly appear as a scrambled "d" shaped rectangle, though certain encounter values will result in a MissingNo. with the appearance of one of three 64×64 pixel sprites used elsewhere in the game.[9]). There has been no consensus at the talk page, there's about the same number of arguments for and against.

My proposal was to remove this image (and therefore delete it, since it would be orphaned). Another proposal was to remove the other non-free image in the article and make this the lede image. The arguments against removing the image have mostly been 1) the text description is confusing to people who haven't played Pokemon, and 2) it's important to show what the glitches look like. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Wait wait wait wait. People weren't proposing that The article replace the one in the infobox. They were proposing to remove the "d"-shaped MissingNo. form from the image.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Some people were. I may have misinterpreted the message "I think I'll add my opinion that the lede image should be removed with this image to replace it" from User:Izno, but there's also "the four scrolling forms shows the context that MissingNo has several forms" from User:Hurricane Angel Saki. I guess another proposal is to remove both images (and delete them) and include only an image of the d-shaped form; if I am understanding your above message correctly, your other proposal is to keep both images but crop the d-shaped form off of this one. In either case, the original question remains, of whether images of all these sprites are necessary. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It occurred to me earlier today that the 4-type image could be deleted as a gallery per non-minimal use, which was sparked by your comment, Rjanag... --Izno (talk) 04:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

If the images are non-free, then you have to consider not just a deletion, but how you go about explaining all its forms. While I support just being mentioning (at least a note) at least, try to make said note without breaking the prose too much, because leaving bits about the museum and the fact that ghosts appear without the Silph Scope will make the section they're in seem too clunky. And finally, I must ask, why does MissingNo.'s d form being non-free strike me as downright hilarious? Are you implying that somebody may need to pay or ask Nintendo to use the visual form of one of their glitches? In general, my primary position (which I've changed since my last post) is to use the current infobox pic, but if the four-image survives deletion, keep it in the article. Hurricane Angel Saki (talk) 11:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The explanation wouldn't break up the prose at all; as I said numerous times at Talk:MissingNo., my suggestion was to put the details in a footnote. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 12:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

<Sorry, I didn't notice them. That works well for the article. Hurricane Angel Saki (talk) 15:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

As I commented earlier, a picture of anything besides the box of static that is MissingNo's "true form" is unnecessary. This is because the sprites look the same whether they are indeed "possessed" by MissingNo or actual Pokemon in the game. If they looked different, it might be arguable, but as it is, it's not.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 20:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] File:Mildred Jeter and Richard Loving.jpg

I'm posting this image here, as it meets WP:NFCC in Mildred and Richard Loving so it should not be deleted, but its use appears to be decorative in Miscegenation, Loving v. Virginia, and Interracial marriage. The image is not subject of critical commentary, failing WP:NFCC#8, and any encyclopedic information the image may provide is already adequately provided by text, failing WP:NFCC#1. --Mosmof (talk) 06:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree with this assessment, use in the first article is similar to common practice here but use in the last 3 is decorative. I note that the rationale's are pretty lame as well; not indicating how it does more than show two people. I would prefer a non-press images but some hunting has found lots of images, all by press photographers. - Peripitus (Talk) 10:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with both of you. A single image of both of the subjects is useful in the main article, but it is not required in the others. It is important that Jeter was black and Loving white, but that's a given- that's what they're known for. A photo is not needed to demonstrate the fact. J Milburn (talk) 13:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, and in particular with the position of J Milburn. Be aware that the current consensus is threatening to the worldwide perspective of the interracial marriage article. For Wikipedia readers abroad who are not acquainted with American history, the background of this couple is not a given, at all. Removal of the picture as such represents the loss of important context to these readers. Currently, the picture provides this context in a manner which cannot be exhibited otherwise for readers of a non-US background, and thus constitutes critical commentary to them. Removal will result in reverting the article to a more American-centric state, and thus in the loss of its overall informative quality for Wikipedia's general audience. The difference is subtle, yet significant, and I am under the impression the other users who have commented have not (yet) recognized this. Malik047 (talk) 06:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Why cannot the reader of the article imagine (as I am now) a black and a white person sitting next to each other? I am not from the US but have no issues with this and I'm fairly sure that most people outside the US of A are similarly able. I read the article and see an image that adds nothing to my understanding. The human mind is quite capable of understanding information without a picture.- Peripitus (Talk) 07:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Following this rationale, our ability to include images in articles should be removed from Wikipedia altogether, simply on the grounds that the human mind is capable of visualization. The issue at hand however is the inherent vagueness of each of your arguments-- any given image in any given article could be argued to fall under them. As an aside, on what do you base the assumption that you are representative of all non-US Wikipedia readers? Malik047 (talk) 08:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with this assessment for Interracial marriage. The significance of the marriage could be adequately conveyed using text, and the image is already prominently displayed in the main article. decltype (talk) 08:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Interracial marriage continues to be a sensitive topic to some circles. It is my hope this has not -in part or otherwise- been a contributing factor to the reached consensus. It would do more than a disservice to the purpose of the website. Malik047 (talk) 08:50, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by this- the fact that it is a sensitive subject should certainly not encourage the use of more non-free images (but, as a rule, it means that editors will be more willing to fight for their inclusion...) I'm completely with Peripitus- can readers not from the US not imagine a black person sitting next to a white person? What they actually look like is not important. J Milburn (talk) 10:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. There is a well established precedent that a non-free image used in the infobox to identify the subject of the article is considered to fulfill Wikipedia’s significance requirement. Used any other way, a non-free image requires a much stronger rationale on how it increases reader understanding. On Mildred and Richard Loving the image is acceptable because it identifies the subject of the article. On the other articles it is not needed for reader understanding. This is not an issue of whether interracial marriage is an important issue; it is an issue of whether the use “would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding,” as the significance criterion requires. —teb728 t c 00:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Further, interracial marriages (as defined in the articles) still occur and contributors here have cameras. Except for Mildred and Richard Loving then a free image can be created. - Peripitus (Talk) 05:52, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Peripitus is right. Since people can still take pictures of interracial couples, no fair use images of the Lovings are allowed on Wikipedia outside of the article on the Lovings because of the way WP:NFCC works. It is a harmful purist mentality that wrote that policy and restricts the use of perfectly good, perfectly legal content, though, and right now, we oughta ignore the stupid rules, do what's best for the project, and keep the images under the expansive legal notion of educational fair use. -- The_socialist ^talk? 00:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

No, you're not proposing we ignore this rule in this one case, you're proposing we rewrite the rules, because you don't like them. J Milburn (talk) 09:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] File:Apple Computer Logo.svg

Does the use of this image on Rob Janoff and History of Apple comply with WP:NFCC#8? Stifle (talk) 12:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

History of Apple I would say certainly: the coloured logo was iconic of the height of Apple's first success in the 1970s and 1980s.

Rob Janoff I would say also yes: it is his most famous work, and currently the article on him is substantially devoted to discussing what may or may not be symbolism in the logo.

I question whether the logo needs to be as big, though. Smaller logo with more white space might be better. Jheald (talk) 13:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Looks like it would be legitimate on Rob Janoff, if that content was a little better sourced, but it would be better in section rather than at the head of the article (where an image of Janoff himself would be best). The lack of discussion or even, as far as I can see, mention is not consistent with the claim that the logo is "iconic"- I cannot see why it is being used in that article. J Milburn (talk) 13:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Before Stifle added the CSD notice, there was a caption which read "The Apple logo in 1976 created by Rob Janoff with the rainbow color theme used until 1998."

IMO showing the original form of the logo, naming the creator, describing when it was changed, taken together as a package does add significantly to the subject of the article, "History of Apple".

As for it being "iconic", that was just my automatic reaction having been around at the time. It's an assessment of significance being offered by me as an editor, and as such germane to the discussion. Jheald (talk) 13:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

An image caption is not enough- it's fairly obvious that the caption describes the image. This reminds me a little of Russell's paradox- using the logic that the caption describes the image, you're basically saying that, if the image is there, it is needed- if it isn't, it isn't. J Milburn (talk) 13:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

An image caption can be entirely enough. There is no requirement at WP:NFCC for any text at all discussing an image. The requirement is for the image to significantly add to the understanding readers get from the image. This image does that. Jheald (talk) 14:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

While a sourced discussion is not specifically mentioned as a requirement in WP:NFCC, the significance still needs to meet WP:V, which would require discussion sourced to a reliable source. Otherwise, simply claiming that an image is of importance to an article would be WP:OR or WP:POV. --Mosmof (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

POV and OR are content policies - it's just fine to make unsourced statements in a meta-discussion like this. We all know (anyone who was around at the time) that the rainbow apple logo was an icon of its era. If we want to improve the article with a sourced statement to that effect, surely it's out there somewhere. The general take on historic logos is that they're okay if used to illustrate a sourced discussion of the branding, logos, and identity of a company (where that is germane to an article), but not okay as a mere gallery of images. By comparison with other visual artists, it's okay in the bio of a graphic designer to include a few well-chosen examles or famous works, if accompanied by sourced discussion. Wikidemon (talk) 17:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me - I was talking about content in article space. My point is that:

1. Non-free content needs to be subject of critical commentary
2. Critical commentary, like all article space content, needs to be sourced to meet WP:V and WP:NOR
3. Therefore, there is an implicit requirement for non-free content to be accompanied by sourced commentary.

And if we wanted to use the rainbow Apple logo as the designer's representative work, we would need a reliable source to verify that it is considered to be the defining work of the designer's, right? --Mosmof (talk) 01:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Who I was just about to quote, from this discussion, and even more on-point the one immediately following it, in the archives at WT:NFC.

WP:NOR is about text in article space. It does not apply to arguments in talk space, image space, policy space, etc. The question of significance is a judgment for the community to come to. It does not depend on citing sources. Jheald (talk) 17:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. If the logo is as important as you claim, it will be worth discussing in the article. If there's discussion in the article, it may be worth including the image. You can't cut out the middle man and slam in a non-free image just because you consider it iconic. J Milburn (talk) 17:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

It is for the community to consider whether they find it iconic (or more precisely, significant). Per WP:BRD "slamming in a non-free image just because you consider it significant" (and expect the community to agree) is exactly what you can do. Jheald (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow. J Milburn (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

(indent) Yeah, wow indeed. I think the comment is a pretty good illustration of exactly how not to approach non-free content use and the fair use principle, that I see with many editors. They think of images as an afterthought or an accessory that you add to an article. Rather, non-free content needs to be an integral part of the content, so much so that the discussion couldn't exist without it. It's not so much that non-free content requires accompanying commentary, but rather, the non-free content must be part of the commentary. --Mosmof (talk) 21:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

back to the game. Like many who were around at the time, the image is significant to me though for what it reminds me of rather than what it tells me. There should be sourced commentary in both places (not hard to do) as without it, particularly in History of Apple the logo adds precisely nothing to the uninformed. I just got someone here to read the section with the logos as an experiment (someone too young to remember the logo)...result was that the inclusion of the logos was meaningless. To those arguing that things are significant, without commentary in the article, this sort of experiment is most instructive. - Peripitus (Talk) 22:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)